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  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 21/01/2019)
    Quote from tronix »
    Quote from The Fluff »
    It's just a part of the life cycle of thread. Discussions flow smoothly for days or a few weeks, then twin would be revisited one way or the other. Although I'm surprised it came back with a lot of intensity today.

    in fairness it wasnt out of the blue. that whole bit in the TCC + Blake Rassmusen + Steve Sunu 'fact/fiction' interview about twin was a cock-up. the fact that it was a user/player submitted question, the way it was phrased, it being selected as something worth talking about, and the subsequent almost dismissive and unrelated response.

    it just highlights how naive the community has and continues to be, and goes to show why wizards employees are often better served not saying anything at all lest it be blown out of proportion after being put under a microscope. 2 guys who likely have minimal to no say in ban/unban decisions, one of which openly said he wasnt even there when the twin ban decision was made (Steve), giving an unrelated and opinionated answer to a loaded question isnt some special insight to be used as proof/evidence of anything.


    Truth. I was tired of the Twin pouting shortly after it happened, which was what almost 4 years ago now? However, that interview resurrected the topic and made it a relevant topic of discussion again (well, in other sectors of the community anyhow. We know the discussion here is always looming). I'm still wondering why WotC even chose to open that can of worms willingly; the questions were screen and approved beforehand, so they must've thought that two tool bags *****ting on Twin would get some laughs or they're just tone deaf. Either way, that interview actually made me somewhat grateful that WotC is terrible at communicating with players; if those two bone jobs are representative of the PR department as a whole, I'll gladly accept silence over the snarky remarks of those smug jagoffs.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    I believe someone mentioned it earlier, but what are everyone's thoughts on Extirpate? I generally try to avoid buying into spikes, but the exception is when there's a very small foil multiplier. Last I checked TCGplayer, the price margins between foils and non were slim; picked up two Planar Chaos foils for $8/ea. Coincidentally, I've noticed the same trend for Surgical Extraction throughout the last few months; I went to list my foil copy on eBay sometime when it was spiking post-UMA and decided against it because foils were being sold for maybe a $5-$10 premium at best. The MM15 card quality isn't anything to write home about, so I could see if it was the case for just that version, but the same has held true for NP foils. Just something I found interesting.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Quick tip for anyone who's itching to crack some UMA boosters, but also unwilling to pay an exorbitant mark up at the lgs. Stopped into GameStop today for a non-mtg related purchase and walked out with two of the 3 pk blisters. Manager said he wasn't surprised they lasted this long as the only time folks come in for cards are when they're running a sale.

    Obviously this won't be the case everywhere, but it's worth peeking you're head in. Package marked $37 but came up $32, presumably due to the GameStop loyalty card discount.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Quote from cfusionpm »
    I was on board with the idea of introducing new cards to Modern, but am a lot more apprehensive about it after the Gavin interview. In addition to the possibility of making existing cards and decks irrelevant or redundant (which is a huge bad thing in of itself, IMO), I fear we lack any of the meaningful safety valves in dealing with the broken nonsense likely to spout from this wave addition to the format. We already get some new linear deck broken every couple sets anyway, using just Standard cards. And given WOTC's general incompetence when it comes to Modern, I don't exactly trust them to "help us" by giving us anything meaningful without accidentally breaking things. This is a dev team that, just a few weeks ago, said with a straight face they believe UWx control decks are the next best deck in Modern after KCI. So if this is the same dev team in charge of making these hypothetical new cards, I don't have high hopes for anything that boosts reactive/control/interactive decks whatsoever.


    It's sad, because it's true Slant However, if I may ask, what part of the Gavin interview turned you off to the idea? I assumed the whole interview would consist of him avoiding questions, ultimately providing nothing of value, but that was the first time in a long while that I thought maybe not everybody at WotC is completely inept. But then I watched a different interview w/ the Prof on the Mothership's YouTube channel and the two schmucks he talked to re-affirmed my assumptions. Idk if anybody else has already watched it, but for those who haven't, I suggest avoiding it unless you want to watch two smug dip*****s regurgitate prepared responses.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    I had no idea such a thread existed; I definitely need to check that out!

    Every point you mention is valid concern/obstacle. I suppose it's one of those things I'd really like to see happen, but only if it was done right. Unfortunately, any new product will likely flop and fall short if the driving force is attributed to Hasbro pressuring WotC to develop something that will make investors happy. I'm not sure if I could ever see WotC designing an entire set with just Modern in mind; I was thinking more along the lines of including a handful of new "modern-centric" cards in something like BattleBond 2.0, Conspiracy 3, Commander Pre-Cons, etc. If done right, I think WotC could use such a product to introduce some checks and balances to the format. On the other hand, I could definitely see backlash from the player base regardless of the impact any new cards have on the format, positive or negative, simply b/c WotC would in-turn set a precedent within the format for direct interventions in the future. Although I doubt they'd ever go back to it, I'd love to throw it back where all MTG products are released with an updated version of the 'beginner', 'advanced', or 'expert' designations and subsequently let those designations indicate which format(s) the cards for X supplemental product could be played in.

    It seems like most players consider last year's Commander decks to be failures taking into account MSRP, perceived value, etc. I'm curious if it would've been the same general sentiment had those C18 cards been considered legal in Modern? I would argue yes, but can also understand why some would say no. You mention the lack of reliable data and that may actually be my biggest concern moving forward; it appears that Hasbro is going all-in on MTGA based on yesterday's investor report and that has made me a bit uneasy about not just the Modern market, but overall health of the format/game in paper. I don't typically jump to conclusions, but the recent rumors surrounding paper tourney coverage coupled with Hasbro's gushing over MTGA haven't given us any reasons not to be concerned. Obviously it's silly to think the paper game could just up and die, but I do wonder whether or not WotC has the personnel/incentive to continue monitoring the data and keeping tabs on the metagame. That's why I think some kind of new support for Modern would go a long way as a good faith effort. UMA essentially proved that players will buy product containing quality reprints and I just hope that whatever method they ultimately choose as a vessel for reprints (potentially new cards) is something well thought out and not just the top 50 Modern cards shoehorned into a series of random supplemental products.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Quote from tronix »

    the cynic in me also believes it might push wizards towards the 'direct-to-modern' product, because if value reprints are unsustainable for a higher priced top shelf product; then why not just make entirely new cards pushed for play to ensure a high price point. bam you just got a new piece of reprint fodder down the line. only have to look at cards like true name nemesis and leovold to see what im talking about.


    This is something I've actually wanted WotC to do for years now. On paper it's a no-brainer as it'd allow them to kill two birds by giving the format a shot in the arm with a suite of reprints too strong for standard and new cards designed specifically with Modern in mind; it would also obviously be huge for Hasbro's bottom line as they'd finally have a product to reel in Modern players. Anyone who plays Modern or an eternal format knows buying singles is the way to go, however, I think there'd be quite a few folks cracking packs if WotC put out a home-run product containing new cards that would be Modern-legal in addition to reprints. Unlike the Masters line, this sort of product would theoretically fluctuate more like a standard set in the sense that nobody would know the actual estimated value until months later. This definitely seems like something WotC struggled with and it's evident when thinking back to the issues which surrounded each set at the time. Speaking of those....


    anyone know if eternal masters had poor quality, or at least poorer than usual? i remember it being before they made those alleged revisions to the printing/coating process.


    I can only speak for my own experience, but I drafted a box of EMA when it was released and the bulk cards have been sitting in a storage since. When rifling through my boxes looking for Intruder Alarms, I came across the EMA box and wanted to yak when I saw how bad the curling was. Not privy to how/how many different production locations they had, but I can confirm some percentage of EMA is warped to hell. IIRC, MM17 was when I first started to notice positive changes in card stock.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 21/01/2019)
    To be fair every company does research on the internet. They would be ******* stupid to not read free feedback on their product.



    lol fact. Been saying this for years. WotC might be incompetent, but they're not completely clueless. Many companies pay a solid chunk of change to third parties to conduct market research and gather data from their customers/target audience. WotC just needs to task an intern with making a dummy Reddit account and taking notes.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Quote from whocansay »
    This is it Scooby!!


    Zoinks! Interesting interview w/ Gavin Verhey on the Tolarian CC YouTube channel that somewhat dips into our earlier discussion regarding who's actually reading the story. Supposedly, the reason for including potentially "complex" cards like Planeswalkers as the face cards of beginner decks is b/c they represent the main "characters from the story that new players get excited about and want". Overall it's actually a pretty solid interview, but this explanation didn't make much sense to me; rather the reason is most likely due to the fact that Planeswalkers have perceived value and new players who don't know any better are conned into buying these pre-cons (ba dum tiss) thinking they're getting value in return. I don't have time to play as much as I'd like, so it's not often I talk to new players, but I find it hard to believe that anybody new to the game 1) Knows a story actually exists/where to find it and 2) Knows who the main characters of aforementioned story are and make purchases due to the excitement they have for those characters. The only exception would be if one of those walkers also appear on booster pack art.


    Aside from that, there were actually two or three different segments of the interview that shed some light on the finance/reprint aspect of the game (without directly referencing any secondary market of course). A few notable things I got from the interview:

    - It definitely doesn't seem like we'll ever see fetches reprinted in another Standard environment, confirming what many of us already believed.

    - The "[Insert Planeswalker] Spellbook" product is something WotC intends to continue with and have at least the next two iterations already planned out. It was also teased that the namesake character doesn't necessarily have to be a walker and Gavin has a list of OG Magic characters that he wants to either reprint or flesh out with new cards.

    - Challenger Decks are definitely returning and will continue so long as they achieve comparable sales to the first iteration. Decklists officially coming in March.

    - In the absence of Masters sets, the plan for getting reprints out into the wild is via supplemental products, non-standard sets, Commander, etc. I don't recall the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of "Masters sets were too hungry for reprints and that made them unsustainable. Each of those sets only had a chunk of reprints that players actually wanted/needed, so now we can focus on that chunk of cards players want in order to make sure reprints are quality and relevant".

    - Lastly, there was another interesting quote that more/less bluntly stated WotC actively monitors and are aware of which cards need reprinted and it's mostly about finding the right product in which to include them.


    All in all, I definitely recommend giving it a watch. Although a lot of the information given was stuff we already assumed to be true, but I don't remember the last time any WotC employee has gone on record to confirm so many assumptions, answer questions, give insight into their thinking/reasoning, and provide information about what to expect in the near future. Really hoping it's not just a coincidence, but between this and yesterday's B&R announcement it appears that WotC might be making an actual effort toward community interaction.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 21/01/2019)
    Quote from Shmanka »
    These last 12 hours of Wizards communication is arguably some of the best we have had in the last 3 to 4 years.

    If Wizards keeps these channels open and consistent, while most of the community strikes when they see wrong and promotes when they see good, we can finally come to terms on more issues than simple format health.


    Agreed. It's an encouraging sign, but we'll have to wait until March rolls around to see if they're making a genuine effort to communicate with the player base. A March announcement of no bans/unbans along with a similar explanation/summary of how they perceive the meta would go a long way in that endeavor. Then again, that lengthy announcement might've put WotC over their allotted amount of community engagement for 2019 and every B&R until 2020 will read "No bans. No unbans". I could see it going either way...
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Holy *****, looks like someone from R&D paid attention to the community's reaction following the last B&R announcement (or rather lack thereof). Always disappointing when nothing comes off the list, but kudos to WotC for not just breaking down the reasoning behind the ban, but for uncharacteristically delving into the meta itself and providing us with some solid information. I won't hold my breath, but getting that sort of rundown / format overview with every B&R announcement would be a step in the right direction toward establishing some sort of communication with the player base.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Hahaha, I needed a good laugh. Spot on, man. Based on my LGS experiences over the last couple years, I agree that Standard players tend to be the youngest players who frequent the store. I'm also interested in whether or not those players actually give a ***** about the story. It reminds me of how Nintendo approaches their first party games/online experiences; they're supposedly aimed at appealing to kids, but their definition of kids hasn't changed in 30 years. For every one kid who ends up with a Nintendo product because their parents like the E ratings and locked down online experience, there's nine other kids playing GTA. Similarly, I don't think WotC's target audience actually exists as they believe. Copping out on quality storylines is one thing, because I'm not required to actually read it. However, it's another thing when that crap story makes it way into flavor text. I want to put a bullet in my head any time I read the flavor text on Drownyard Temple
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Quote from ThirdDegree »
    I don't think that false (potentially) image is fully to blame for the SFM spike. Look at it's price on mtgstocks and it spiked several times before banlist announcements. I do like that time in the graph where it stopped spiking, as if the community just gave up hope. Haha


    SFM stock always ticks up prior to a B&R announcement. Fraudulent posts that pretend to be leaks just throw fuel onto that fire; I'm sure plenty of people saw that post and immediately went to pick up copies of the card without any confirmation of legitimacy.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Quote from Kathal »
    Any thoughts on how prices for usable suspend cards( Ancestral Vision, Living End, Restore Balance ) will be affected by Electrodominance?

    No, should not influence those cards at all, since it is not that good of an card to begin with. It would only make As Foretold better, since you get another pay off card.


    Well don't look now, but Wheel of Fate just doubled in price with Restore Balance up 50%. Regardless of whether anyone thinks Electrodominance will have an impact during gameplay, it looks like it's starting to impact the market, so pickup your copies of Living End/AV/Lotus Bloom/etc now if you plan on brewing with Electrodominance or need them for any other uses, because it took ~4-7 months for them to settle back down the last time they spiked following the reveal of As Foretold. IMO, this time it may be legit b/c Electrodominance has far more applications than As Foretold; allowing the card to be cast at instant speed has the potential for all kinds of shenanigans.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Quote from whocansay »
    Quote from SpinifexV »
    In front of the Stronghold's broken doors, Gideon was giving Teferi the Gatewatch oath while Chandra stood by. Karn and Jaya had agreed to join the fight against Bolas, but hadn't agreed to take the oath. Karn because he meant to leave soon to continue his effort to destroy New Phyrexia, and Jaya because, as she had said, "I'm not a joiner."


    Source: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/return-dominaria-episode-12-2018-05-30

    "The Cylix," he told her. "It was created by Urza to help defeat the Phyrexians. I intend to take it to New Phyrexia and detonate it there."

    "So it's like a bomb? A giant bomb?"

    "Exactly like a giant bomb," Karn said.


    Source: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/return-dominaria-episode-9-2018-05-09


    Wow, what pinnacles of human creativity the writers at WOTC are. Durrr big bomb? Yerp you betcher boss big bomb yerp.


    All about appealing to the lowest common denominator. Shame. I remember reading the books that used to come in fat packs and while they were never literary works of art, they were at the very least interesting and didn't read like a teenager's attempt at Marvel fan-fiction. Maybe that's just nostalgia talking and the story has always sucked ass, but it still made for solid lore. The whole gatewatch wannabe superhero club thing is awful and I'd hate to see the potential of a return to new phyrexia ruined by their campy oath ***** and happy-go-lucky attitudes. Jace suffering a brutal death due to explosive phyrexian diarrhea would be a move in the right direction...


    Re: Challenger Decks, I can definitely see Teferi & Search for Azcanta getting reprints along with a handful of other cards along the lines of History of Benalia. Arclight Phoenix seems like another solid target, but one that ultimately won't be included simply b/c it's not from one of the sets rotating out in the Fall. IIRC, most of the notable inclusions from the first set of challenger decks were mostly all from sets due to rotate out (Chandra, Walking Ballista, Hazoret, Push, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if they chose to reprint most/all of the flip cards from Ixalan and spread them out among the various decks to make it so there isn't one deck that's more sought out than the rest, ala whatever challenger deck had Chandra/Hazoret.

    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Quote from Lear_the_cat »
    Quote from Mikefon »
    Quote from Lear_the_cat »
    Quote from cfusionpm »
    Quote from Lear_the_cat »
    Bans are bad for players and unbans will only make things much worse.

    I cannot write enough words to explain how and why I think this statement is wholly and completely wrong.

    I'll try to explain why.

    [...] if you udon't want to see opponent realizing potentian of his powerfull cards then just kill him before. Here comes t3 kill combo and aggro decks.

    That's not unbans fault. Those strategies would be discovered anyway sooner or later.
    Dredge would be the same deck even without BBE and Jace unbans, the same is true for Phoenix decks.
    As long as unbans don't power up unfair strategies I can't understand why there shouldn't be.

    Yeah, I can understand this position. But main question is what players really want? Nonlinear, interctive modern? Linear, interactive modern as it it's now?
    If ppl want first, they have to push their desire and opinion bcs Wizards have testing team to reject potentially broken things and if something unexpected happens - ban it with banhammer tool. But as I see current modern's future - it's Legacy 2.0 with slow dying which is profitable for Wizards but not for players. (Standart and Arena reasons)


    Legacy is only in the state that it is today b/c of the RL; support for the format would look a whole lot different if duals weren't so cost prohibitive. If Modern were to ever experience "slow dying", it'd be due to a lack of player interest and not due to a lack of availability of format staples. Let's stop this woe is me Modern is dying bull*****. Modern was supposedly dead when enemy fetches were pricing players out of playing certain decks, then it was supposed to be dead when WotC started reprinting too many format staples, dead after the banning of [pod, twin, etc], dead from eldrazi winter, and lest not forget, death at the hand of Frontier and its merry band of Siege Rhinos.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
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