Been a while, team.
So, Fraying Sanity seems to be the topic of discussion. I'll weigh in by saying it is ABSOLUTELY the truth IF you are not in a tempo match. Does very little on it's own, we've all agreed on that. But if it can stick and then get some support (let's say from a Hedron Crab or Mesmeric Orb then it gets deadly super quick. My opinion thus far is that it's a 3-of.
More of my opinions:
1 - You're talking about going Hedron Crabless? What the hell is wrong with you people?!? Fetchlands and crabs do easily 40% of the heavy lifting. Get on the crab train, folks!
2 - I hate Mind Funeral. Hate it. Inconsistent. Seems to want to whiff ONLY when the whole game is on the line. I have moved on to Startled Awake and have found it to be an appropriate curve-topper.
3 - I get the whole targeted discard and then extract angle, but I don't think it's smart. Especially in this meta. Yeah, you blank the occasional deck on the spot. But more often than not you've wasted two cards on taking out one of seven threats that deck is packing. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek and Extirpate don't deserve mainboard slots. Surgical Extraction is a maybe.
4 - Where the hell are all the Jace's Phantasms??? Card is a house. In a void, it's a 5/5 flying wall of pain. Everyone else here is talking 3 cmc walls that don't do half of what phantasm does. AND HE BEATS DOWN. How many games have I won to a random stingray ass-whoopin'? A whole bunch.
I'm obviously bringing an older version of the deck to the table, but the fundamentals seem to have been tossed to the wayside in the name of new hotness. I am overjoyed to entertain dissenting opinions. But come on, people. Let's make a deck that can handle the BS that the meta is throwing at us right now.
- Registered User
Member for 5 years, 2 months, and 12 days
Last active Mon, Jun, 11 2018 09:05:06
- 0 Followers
- 96 Total Posts
- 12 Thanks
Jun 20, 2017I think our new toy is utterly insane. Yes, I know a 3-drop is rough in our lists. But let's think it through:Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
1) They multiply if you get multiples. So if you have 2 out, it's a x4 effect instead of an x3.
2) Curves into Startled Awake, for the other believers out there.
3) You hold up an Archive Trap for this and it goes gangbusters.
So, my only concern is how this alters the normal line of play. Usually I want to hit every archive trap I can hit ASAP. Same with Glimpse once I have the open mana. This rewards setting up your board (early spot removal and maybe a phantasm or crab), dropping the new hotness and then unleashing holy hell upon them. Which kinda slows our normal gameplan. Which depowers which cards?
Visions of beyond - since we're not smashing early like normal, can we get to twenty quickly enough?
Crypt incursion - same issue. This is a "relies on early mill to fuel it so that you can survive to finish the game" kind of card.
I'm sure there's a ton more. I'm high on optimism right now. The point is, I think this is going to become a staple 4-of in a matter of moments after it's released and MAY put mill on the modern map. A shift to more controlly-ness may come with this card.
I'm freaking out. This is gonna be epic. Our time is now.
Feb 18, 2017A write-up from a 2-boxer at the local shop today. Ended up being a 21-header. My decklist is 2/3 the way down page 68 of this thread if anyone feels curious. Kudos to all the tournament write-ups that this thread has seen recently. Gives great insight into specific matches and the cards that shined.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Round 1 - GR Eldrazi Tron
1) She opens with a tron piece and expedition map. I reply crab. She 'nuther tron pieces and fetches the last one. I fetchland for a mill 6 aaaaaaaand Emrakul, the Aeons Torn shows up. Crap. She hits tron, drop a Karn Liberated and proceeds to thwart my beatdown via Jace's Phantasm. I scoop.
-1 Crypt Inc, -2 Mes Orb, -2 G Prison
+3 Surg Ex, +2 Rav Trap
2) I play it very slow, waiting for an extraction effect to show up. She is a bit slow out of the gates, but ends up mapping for her final tron piece. I extract it, hoping not to see Emmy too soon. Turns out, she was in her hand. I proceed to mill with extreme prejudice.
3) I play it slow again, extract a tron piece, but gas out bad. She starts ramping one by one into a Karn. I top-deck a Surgical Extraction to stop Karn from dropping to pound through a Phantasm beatdown.
Round 2 - Esper Midrange
1) Souls and Tasigur and lotsa counterspells and stuff. A good matchup for us. He was a bit mana screwed early and I just got rolling on him. Mesmeric Orb and Ghostly Prison did the job mostly.
-1 Path, -2 Crypt Inc
+2 G Prison, +1 Surg Ex
2) We both did our respective things. Mine ended up involving a turn 1 Hedron Crab with piles of fetchlands following AND a Trapmaker's Snare into an Archive Trap when I had another in my hand. So the solid 26 smack. Always fun. I outsped him.
Round 3 - G Stompy
1) I have actually been wrecked by this exact deck before. Was a tad trepidatious. Caught an early Path to Exile on his T2 Scavenging Ooze and he kinda stalled out after that. By the time he was able to get rolling I could Crypt Incursion for 63 life and put him out of range.
-3 Archive Trap, -2 Trap Snare
+3 Spellskite, +2 G Prison
2) He curved out nicely and I flooded. It was bad. He also hit my lone Skite with Unravel the Aether which sucked.
3) Landed a T2 Spellskite. Followed up with a T3 Ghostly Prison. Then another. Eventually a third one hit. He had literally 50+ power on the board and couldn't touch me with a dang thing. Stole all his pump when he tried that path. T'was lovely.
Round 4 - W Humans
1) Buddy was foiled out. Like, foil Icatian Javelineers level commitment. I ended up with an opener with 3 Jace's Phantasms, a Glimpse the Unthinkable and the land to make it work. I smashed face. He scooped. Never fetched though....
-3 Archive Trap, -2 Trap Snare
+3 Spellskite, +2 G Prison
2) Hit a Ghostly Prison turn 3, which was nice. But that was about all that was nice about this game. Gassed out entirely too early. Still managed to beat him down pretty bad. He bashed me to 1 life and I had the savior Mind Funeral which hit for 19. Sadly, he had 1 card left, drew and killed me. Turns out, he told me he runs 61 cards. SO much fail.
3) Drew 2 Prisons opening hand, never hit the white mana I needed for 'em. Got stomped.
Round 5 - Infect
1) We drew into top 8. Yay for winning. Played for fun anywho. He stuck a Blighted Agent despite me pathing the first and dropping a Phantasm. He got there.
-2 Mes Orb, -2 Trap Snare, - 2 Crypt Inc
+3 Spellskite, +3 Surg Extract
2) I flooded and the one Prison that stuck didn't stop the pain train. Infect is rough.
All day 3 - 2.
I hate Mind Funeral so bad. Yes, you can set it up by letting them fetch or extracting lands or Ghost Quartering stuff, but even then it still does not fail to disappoint me. Today hit for 6, 10, 8, 6, and 19. Garbage for consistency. Conversely, Startled Awake has put in work as a good curve topper and viable Shelldock Isle target. Probably gonna switch one for the other soon. May go a full 3 SA/0 MF.
Spellskite is a dang powerhouse. Probably gonna find room for a fourth in my side.
Trapmaker's Snare hs been AOK thus far. Still experimenting, but it gets the Archive Traps pretty nicely and opens fun sideboard options.
Good times. Hope this helps.
Feb 5, 2017Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Regarding Surgical, just wanted to point out you sided them in 4/5 matches, but you still don't think they deserve a spot in the main?
Absolutely. Just so happened I hit a combo-heavy mix this go around. I can tell you at that same tournament was an infect, two burns, a UR prowess, a value Abzan (comboless) and a Jund.
I stand by the fact that it draws dead against low to the ground creature strategies to be viable in the main. But again, just my opinion.
Feb 5, 2017Recent FNM with a solid competitive crowd:Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Round 1 - Mono U Tron
Game 1 - Played this guy before. He just can't beat mill. His kill cons are few in number and not too impressive once dropped. I was able to get a good mill on him before he just shut down every move I made with counterspells. Like OMG this guy had counters for days. A single phantasm did the deed beatdown style.
-2 trap snare, -2 crypt inc, -2 prison, +3 disenchant, +3 surg extract
Game 2 - He kept a one lander and stayed there for entirely too long. Couldn't come back.
2-0, record 1-0
Round 2 - GR Tron
Game 1 - Yay more Tron! This guy is pretty serious. Game one he hits natural Tron turn 3. I end up having to hammer through 2 oblivion stones and 2 karns before top-decking a glimpse for the kill. You could tell he didn't believe I beat him.
-1 crypt inc, -2 prison, +3 surg extract
Game 2 - He did that thing where he just added his sideboard into his deck thinking that'd slow me down. Lo and behold, he mulligans away hand #1 (no land) and keeps hand #2 with a pair of Urza's Towers in it. Those are the only lands he saw all game. The salt was real. Quite fun for me.
2-0, record 2-0
Round 3 - Jeskai Flyers
Game 1 - This guy normally runs Ad Nauseum, so it disappointed me to see the change. Came at me with Judge's Familiars and Mausoleum Wanderer and that +1/+1 anthem for all flyers. Actually stuffed a lot of my mill which was annoying. I got the prison/orb combo on him, but he was able to pound me out before it closed the deal (his deck was in single digits though)
-1 startled awake, -1 trap snare, +2 prison
Game 2 - Got the prion/orb online turn three. He was stalled out. I start milling. Notice Nahiri, the Harbinger. Dammit, he sided in Emrakul. He made a mistake and accidentally shuffled his graveyard into his library, so I COULD have gotten a game win there and adjusted accordingly, but it was an honest mistake and it's my local shop and I see this dude a lot. I told him to show me Emmy, he did, I gave it to him regardless.
0-2, record 2-1
Round 4 - Abzan Toolbox
Game 1 - After quite the epic back and forth, he was able to assemble an infinite combo off the back of a Reveillark and the graveyard fodder I provided. Again, deck in the single-digits by the end.
-2 prison, -1 startled awake, +3 surg extract
Game 2 - Extracted the Viscera Seer and incursioned for 33. GG
Game 3 - I got a slooooow start. He was able to drop a couple beaters and just keep beating. Outran me.
1-2, record 2-2
Round 5 - Jank Temur Storm
Game 1 - Cool enough deck. Trying to stack a lot of overgrowth effects on a single land, use a bunch of twiddles and past in flames to a grapeshot victory. But we wreck these decks. So I wrecked him.
-2 prison, -4 path, -2 crypt inc, +3 disenchant, +3 surg extract, +2 ravenous trap
Game 2 - Got 3 crabs down pretty quick and never missed a land drop. Disenchanted his first attempt top ramp. Ravenous trapped his graveyard for good measure.
2-0, record 3-2
Feb 5, 2017Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Feb 5, 2017Excited about the current line of discussion going on. Glad we have different philosophies to bounce off of one another. I will humbly submit mine. First off, an individual card evaluation for some of the more contested choices:Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Visions of Beyond is the core of the engine. It gives us reach and pushes us through the 20-40 cards milled section of the game (where before we're emptying our opening hand and after we're hopefully Shelldocking into the goal). Anyone who doesn't run the playset I feel is dramatically limiting their mid- to late-game potential.
Jace's Phantasm is a staple. Usually ends up being a big dumb blocker that just stuffs a lot of threats. Often times becomes the alt-kill con. A 4 turn clock in the air is no joke, and often times our opponents aren't too worried about their life totals. Yes, dies to removal. I get it. But I will gladly eat a removal spell on my fatty to keep my crab milling away.
Darkness is simply not appropriate in this meta. Fatal Push is still being digested and while that is happening is putting a blockade on a lot of aggro strategies. Fogs are basically bad Time Warps. Sure, during Eldrazi Winter I ran Darkness and it did a fair job. But not now.
Fatal Push is good. I still prefer Path to Exile as I am on the Esper train and the ability to activate Archive Trap is invaluable. Does ramping your opponent periodically suck? Sure does. But I think the benefits outweight the costs. If you're on Dimir, then by all means jam a playset of Pushes in there. But if you're already running 4 Paths then I think going for removal 5-8 is overkill. Muddies up the opening hands and reduces your potency for top-decking your way to victory.
Tome Scour is a no. Not enough punch for a card out of your hand. I'd rather say "land, go" first turn then try to run impotent mill like this and dilute your deck damage. And with Phantasm and Crab, you USUALLY have a strong T1 drop.
Thought Scour is also a no but for very different reasons. I tried this handsome devil out for a good month or so as a 4-of. Tried to run lower to the ground. Wasn't awful. The big problems were 1) it made opening hands involving them reeeeally difficult to evaluate and 2) in very fast matches the one extra mana spent really taxed your tempo. If we're only able to go 5 turns and we PERFECTLY curve out, that means we get 15 total mana all game long. Dropping one for mill 2 cards is rough. I am open towards being proven wrong on this one.
Breaking/Entering I am gonna group in with Tome Scour and say it doesn't have enough punch. Most notably, it doesn't turn on your phantasms. Stylistically, I can see this slotting into the all-in burn style of mill. But I am of the opinion that if you're going that route you'd be better off playing actual burn. Does the same thing more consistently and often times more quickly.
Surgical Extraction is ABSOLUTELY VITAL, but in the sideboard. I think maining it just does too little to aggressive or go-wide strategies which are the biggest consistent problems we face. Obviously this is one of the most ongoing debates on this thread, and I fully realize there is validity in wanting to main it. But the insta-wins it gives us are usually in matches we're already strong against (Ad Naus, Scapeshift, Tron, etc.) Along that line of logic, I think Extirpate is entirely unnecessary, as 4 extraction effects is plenty.
Ensnaring Bridge versus Ghostly Prison seems to be the other big debate. Strong arguments exist on both sides. I personally favor the prisons. Bridge stops them entirely IF you can empty your hand fast enough to turn it on. Prison slows them down and taxes them if you've got a Mesmeric Orb down and doesn't need any conditions met after you cast it. Bridge also non-bo's with Visions of Beyond and you already know I'm a big believer in Visions. Overall I think we can all agree that one of these options is definitely needed in the 75 and tends to do more good than harm if included in the 60.
Manic Scribe I just never liked. Too inconsistent, too high of a bar to turn him on, too easily whacked once online.
Mind Funeral I also don't like. I run two because you kinda have to run some. But the inconsistency drives me mad. I've hit for 24. I've hit for 5. You just never know. And yeaaaah, I guess you can count on Ghost Quarter to thin things out or try and set it up by extracting some lands, but overall I think that's not gonna up the consistency much. I think this is one aspect of the deck that I just have to accept.
Startled Awake is something I've had as a 2-of for a while. Now it's a 1-of. The four mana cost is rough, no arguments here. But it hits a consistent 13. I think I've bounced it out of the graveyard a total of twice in my life, so that effect isn't thrillingly useful. But it gives you another very juicy Shelldock Isle target and often by the end of the game you can hard cast it without too much issue. Jury is still out here, but I'm keeping the one in.
Trapmaker's Snare was in my original build, I took it out for many months and it just came back in. Now that I'm better with the deck, this card puts in WORK. Basically becomes Archive Trap numbers 5 and 6 in my deck. Also opens a couple fun sideboard options in Ravenous Trap for Dredge, Emmy and Snapcaster-heavy decks and Refraction Trap for literally anything running creatures and lightning bolts together (which there is a metric crapton of). It's a weird choice I know, but it's working for me.
Spellskite. Where the hell has he been this whole conversation? Everyone is whining about how burn and infect bash our faces in. Spellskite is MASSIVE in both of those matchups. Also helps against suicide zoo, kiln fiend combo and a lot of fringe jank. Solid blocker with an awesome ability we don't always have to pay life for (because blue) that is easy on the mana base. What's not to love?
Nov 23, 2016K, e'erbody. I took a break and went back to playing Infect for a while. I'm back on the mill train with a vengeance.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
First off, I am super-hyped as to all the different ideas floating around, all of which seem to be working in their own accord. I'd like to try and draw some common ground (kinda re-draw OP's vision based on today's stuff) so we can build from that.
1) Aggro is the most difficult thing for us. I don't think I'm saying anything we don't already know. Infect and go wide strategies are powerful against us. They need to be dealt with. The great debate on this seems to be between Ghostly Prison and Ensnaring Bridge as well as the inclination towards spot removal we should have mainboarded.
2) We have some pretty nifty toys that straight up hose some decks. Surgical Extraction being at the top of the list. They are nice to have mainboarded to just buy game one, but likely should mostly reside in the side.
3) We need to stay pretty aggro on the mill plan, but there are a lot of shades of gray to be considered. Whether or not to include Mesmeric Orb seems pretty critical on this point.
4) We are often finding ourselves in topdeck mode. So "does this as a topdeck in a critical moment help me or not" is super relevant. I think this lends itself toward validating Visions of Beyond as a 4-of more than anything.
5) Archive Trap can be finicky if not played around. That said, it's still our biggest gun.
6) Dredge is a cruel joke. They bash our face. Must be sided against if you remotely expect to see it at a tournament.
Would like to see on the basic cards we can all agree upon and go from there. My humble non-land card suggestion on a common core:
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards 4 Archive Trap
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Hedron Crab
2 Crypt Incursion
Then a lot of if/or options. That seem like a reasonable place to begin? Discuss.
Sep 9, 2016Random side note: Anyone else have their spider senses tingle when Kambal, Consul of Allocation was spoiled? I ask specifically referencing our relatively dismal match-up against burn. It provides an absolute must-answer. Burn's BEST case scenario is bolting it which:Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
1- Wastes a bolt
2- Gains us 2 life
3- Loses them 2 life, maybe more from an Eidolon of the Great Revel
If they DON'T bolt it, we're chumping eidolons and goblin guides for days and all the burn to the face gets mostly blunted. I dunno. I'm toying with it as a 3-4 of in the side. Also has a lot of nasty implication against Nahiri Control, Storm (which the new Thing Ascension deck brought back up), and really any deck that combos off with non-creature cards. Heck, I can see siding it in against infect if you're going the beatdown route. They get reckless enough with their life totals that it may work.
Maybe I'm high. Let me know your thoughts.
Aug 22, 2016Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
2x Marsh Flats
1x Flooded Strand
1x Steam Vents
2x Watery Grave
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Godless Shrine
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2x Shelldock Isle
2x Sunken Ruins
1x Surgical Extraction
4x Visions of Beyond
4x Path to Exile
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
2x Hide // Seek
4x Mind Funeral
4x Archive Trap
4x Hedron Crab
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Mesmeric Orb
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Surgical Extraction
4x Jace's Phantasm
2x Hide // Seek
2x Ghostly Prison
2x Crypt Incursion
2x Leyline of Sanctity
I think my lands could use a little work somehow. Part of me wants to put more fetch lands in (I only currently have one Flooded Strand but would go up to more), but I run out of lands that I can actually fetch sometimes. I like Sunken Ruins cuz often what I want to cast requires very specific colours (twincast on glimpse for example) and filtering is nice. Shelldock Isle usually hits, but comes into play tapped and usually only casts a Mind Funeral. So one mana (comes in tapped) plus 2 mana (one blue, and tap Shelldock) means the 3 CMC spell is not really getting any discount.
Hide // Seek I also use in conjunction with a Steam Vents as my anti-artifact/enchantment spell, so it's not just to strip Emrakul out with Seek. But yea, bad against burn for sure, the biggest drop I usually see is 3 or 4. Currently at 2 main and 2 SB.
Snapcaster with Mesmeric Orb is pretty bomber, snapping back a path or visions at EOT can be clutch, even stuff in my graveyard that just got milled there instead of being played. It's been great for me.
Re: Mind Funeral vs Startled Awake, I think I prefer Mind Funeral. Yea, inconsistent at times, but in decks running lots of fetch lands, I bet 4 lands averages out to 12-13 cards anyway, and 3 vs 4 CMC means snapping it back is more convenient.
I used to run 4 twincasts, and while it's a big hitter, it's expensive like you said, and often coloured mana dependent. I've been pulling them out slowly in favour of other stuff but am left with a one of still.
IOK works nicely with Extirpate and Surgical Extraction I find. Undecided which I like better, it depends if the other player has counters (Extirpate) or not (Surgical cuz it's "free")
Dispel is alright, thinking about subbing for Spell Pierce or Remand though, just because sometimes there's non-instants you want to hit. The 1 CMC is nice cuz unlike most blue control decks, we don't run many cards that can be cast at EOT, so it sucks to hold your mana back without a backup plan to spend it on.
Your thoughts on Phantasm made me stick 4 of in the SB, I'm pretty intrigued now. I'm going to stick them mainboard to start my next match (likely -Twincast, -Dispel, -2x Mind Funeral) and see how it works for me. I had brief thoughts of throwing a 4x Geist of Saint Traft in SB, which would let me sub in a heavy beatdown package for game 2 after they sub out their creature control once they see I'm a mill deck. Element of surprise. But pulling cards out is tough
I had 4x Thing in the Ice previously SB for Zoo/burn creatures, but found him to be mostly ineffective, though I did transform him once (instant speed Visions and Extraction) to bounce my opponents creatures pre-combat which led to a win.
That mention of Spellskite intrigues me too, I've only got a one of in my collection. I haven't playtested against infect yet.
Very cool build. An entirely different direction than I take as far as board interaction goes and I bet it all works together pretty well.
LANDS: I'll compare to mine. You're running 21 total/7 fetches/4 basics, I run 23 total/9 fetches/3 basics (one of each because I hate blood moon). I found myself pulling too many one and no land hands when I was running 22 and the extra fetch really helps me not get flooded late game. You also can't have to many fetches when it comes to Hedron Crab. That dude puts in work. I can see the filter lands being a necessity given the instant choices you made in this deck. DOn't have much advice to offer other than maybe pump up by one or two. Especially since you're running Snaps, you NEED to get to that fourth mana reliably by turn 5.
Shelldock Isle I don't look to for the mana discount. I look to it as a finisher. A Coup de grace, so to speak. Because if you've got them that low, hopefully whatever you've hidden will put them under. I run two as well.
The lack of Ghost Quarter is interesting. I can see your mana requirements not being able to afford a colorless producing land, but it's pretty neat when facing down a Inkmoth Nexus or when baiting an opponent into Archive Trap, though Path to Exile does that too. It's super fun catching them once and then bluffing about every subsequent Path/GQ going forward. Nice poker magic.
Hide // Seek and Steam Vents tech is sick. I might have to steal that from you. Right now I'm 2 hide and seeks and 4 disenchants in the SB. Could drop to just 4 HnS and a Steam Vents and free up a sideboard slot.
Snaps makes a lot more sense in your build than it does mine. But I get the enthusiasm surrounding him. He's a bajillion dollars a pop for a reason.
Same thing on Mind Funeral. With Snaps it's value goes way up. I am, however, a fan of the Mesmeric Orb and Startled Awake synergy. Opponents rarely know what the hell I'm doing when I pop out Baby Junior SOB from the graveyard when I never hit them with the startled awake in the first place. It's nice card advantage.
Hand destruction I can see working, just not consistently enough for the devotion of 4 mainboard slots. But you're not the first person to suggest it.
I thought the same thing about the dispels when I saw them in your list. Not enough options in there to use the spare U on if you didn't need to counter anything. No me gusta.
Jace's Phantasm will make a believer out of you. Trust me. Every tenth game will be "Well, I guess I'll just face-bash you four times with this flying beatstick". Geist as a transformational sideboard thing could definitely be fun alongside him.
Agreed on the Thing in the Ice. Doesn't seem to do what we all want it to do. I'm going with 3xSpellskite instead to shore up against infect and burn.
Aug 20, 2016Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from Dosequiguy »What decks specifically do you think Thing in the Ice is good for when you say "grindier" matchups? I'm asking because Spellskite gives you the same 0/4 body for 2 cmc but is so relevant in many matchups.
The short answer is I don't know. I find myself bringing it in against burn to absorb Eidolon of the Great Revel and Goblin Guide smacks as an alt wincon. Also against Hatebears and Jund and anything where I side out heavily. Also any time they don't see a Jace's Phantasm first game I'll try to slide the Things in to double down on the beatdown plan. I dunno. Haven't seen him flip once, which is disappointing. Haven't playtested it quite enough to pass decisive judgement yet. The Spellskite suggestion has really got me thinking. Much appreciated on it.
Aug 20, 2016Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Medium-time lurker, first time poster here. I love Mill, been playing it for awhile now and just trying to tune it for modern!
A couple areas my list differs from those here:
Why no Snapcaster Mage in these lists? I definitely prefer him over Jace's Phantasm, he lets us flash back Visions, or a Glimpse, or a Path if needed. I feel like Phantasm gets us away from our strategy, which is to get them milled down, though I do see it's utility as a blocker at least. Snapcaster just has synergy with Mesmeric orb, it puts my spells in my graveyard. And don't forget about instant speed blocker for a pesky Geist of Saint Traft and stuff like that. He's a 4-of for me.
I run 2 x Damnation in the main board as a sweeper for midrangey decks that has been an all-star for me.
I have Ghostly Prison but haven't tried it out in the deck yet, but I agree that it's preferable to Ensnaring Bridge
One of the guys in my playgroup uses Jeskai Nahiri with an Emrakul and a bunch of counters in his main board - that Emrakul is annoying. I run 2 Hide // Seek in the main as well as 2 Surgical Extractions (with Extirpate in my SB in case). If I can mill a Nahiri and Extract it, I'm sitting pretty decent.
I haven't seen anyone speak up about Twincast either. Hitting a twincast on a Glimpse (or even Visions) can be a huge swing mid game. And it works well with Archive Trap costing 0 as well. I think both Mind Funeral and Twincast are better than Startled Awake
I'm looking forward to partaking in some good discussions with everyone in here, there's been a LOT of good suggestions made! My deck was previously UB, but I threw the white in there based on this thread (Hide // Seek, path, and Ghostly prison in SB are too good to pass up).
Seems more of a stylistic difference. I'm a believer that Twincast and Snapcaster Mage are both too slow. I tried Twincast for a while and found myself top-decking it entirely too often with nothing in hand to double. Cap'n Snaps becomes relevant at 4 mana (sometimes five, depending) which I think is when you should be hitting Startled Awake. If you've got the build to drag things out, I imagine Snap's value goes way up.
Jace's Phantasm is an absolute house. Yes, it can "take us away from our main plan" buuuuuuuut it's a ridiculous blocker, doesn't die to bolt (which is relevant) and if you can t1 phantasm into t2 glimpse you've got a viable beatdown clock and lacking any life total threats leaves your opponent open to be very careless about their life totals. And, if you're sneaky, a lot of round one opponents will be VERY careless with their life totals early on (assuming it doesn't matter a la infect) and a sudden phantasm can put them on the back foot real quick. Just had a game where buddy locked me out of lands with Ghost Quarter and Life From the Loam real early on, but the two phantasms were simply too bashy to answer.
Damnation is one of many, many directions we can go with handling midrange beatdown. I think one of the beautiful things of this deck is all the different nuances we can build in without having to adhere to a "tried and true" netdeck list. If it's working for you then I'm all about it.
Mind Funeral is entirely too finicky. The 3 cmc is nice though. I run two of it and two Startled Awake for the consistency.
You're maining 2 Hide // Seek? I mean, don't get me wrong. Every time I hit a Jeskai Nahiri deck a little part of me dies inside game one, but other than Emmy what are you aiming for? I can't see it being too strong in a lot of our harder match-ups (Burn, affinity, suicide zoo, etc.) I'm a fan of 2x in the SB but I'm curious as to your logic on this one.
Would love to see your list. Sounds like you're bringing an interesting angle.
Aug 19, 2016Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from RoKnRuiN1 »I don't think the prisons or bridges are necessary atm personally. I prefer to just race and that's worked for me just fine the past few months. Prison might be better paired with your removal if your set on using either.
I'm gonna politely disagree with you on this one. I think go wide strategies like zoo, delver/pyromancer, spirits and a bunch of others pose a serious threat that we can't consistently out-tempo. As I've advocated a number of time on this thread, I think Ensnaring Bridge is too slow to effectively counter what it's aiming at (stopping the early damage avalanche). While it DOES shut out things entirely later on, by that point we should have already won. Others have already commented on the nonbo it has with Visions of Beyond and the positive synergy that Ghostly Prison has with Mesmeric Orb.
So yeah. I'm a 4-of prison player in the main all day long.
All that said, you are clearly one of the more pragmatic and thoughtful players that posts on this thread along with Irixis (or whatever his name is) so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.
Aug 19, 2016Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Thus far very well. It's a curve topper for sure, but (at least in the mana base I am running) getting to that fourth land by turn 5 is very easy and having two additional slams for 13 cards really puts an exclamation point on our gas tank. I have yet to need to flip it but I imagine I will hit grindier matches that Baby Junior SOB buys me out of. Would highly recommend trying as a two-of.Quote from Dosequiguy »How has Startled Awake performed? I just assumed 4 cmc was too much so I never tested it.
Aug 3, 2016Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from georgieporgie123 »my thoughts right now: are
1) Telemin Performance is a good card to have in the sideboard against some decks. Talent of the telepath is a good card, too.
2) Surgical Extraction should be in the mainboard. Every deck has a threat that we milled. It even costs 0 mana and only 2 life.
3) Duskmantle Guildmage and Mindcrank combo should be in every deck? one can win from any mill card, the other off any single point of damage. Memory erosion is good.
4) the deck has a problem in any scenario in a problem with a creature. that deck can win from any win creature. I play Jace's Phantasm and Nihilith for that reason. Consuming aberration is also useful, and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver can give us a big card. actually,
5) Avatar of Woe is good in the sideboard.
1) A five drop to hit a very narrow segment of decks hard doesn't seem too strong. I mean, your best bet is against Jeskai Nahiri and even they run 4 Snapcaster Mages. Talent I have looked at as well, but what instants or sorceries are you trying to hit? The same cost gives you Startled Awake which is a notably bigger slam against their deck.
2) Surgical is a dead draw against SO many decks, most notably the aggro kind that we naturally have difficulty against. I'm a huge proponent of 4 in the SB, but maindeck would require a metagame that warrants it.
3) Turbo mill and combo decks are very different things. Just because the combo wins by milling doesn't make it a "mill deck" sort of thing. Same idea as Painter's Servant and Sphinx's Tutelage. You'll fold to combo decks like Ad Nauseum and Scapeshift that simply do combos better. Additionally, any combo contingent upon keeping permanents on the board is inherently difficult to make consistent. Memory Erosion seems strictly worse than Sphinx's Tutelage unless you're going against Storm or something that hammers out a ton of spells all at once.
4) Aberration as a 5 drop is another tough pill for me to swallow. Especially when it can eat a Path to Exile since they don't have TOO many other Path targets. Phantasm is awesome, no argument there. Nihilith I tinkered with for a while and rarely got him to actually attack. I'd get him to unsuspend, but then he was pretty much always used as a blocker. I'm messing with Thing in the Ice and generally like it more than Nihilith. Ashiok is just a tad too slow and too easily smacked out of existence in my opinion. I WANT him to work, but he doesn't seem to do what we need.
5) Against a creature heavy deck, that isn't a terrible idea.
Please don't take any of my comments as criticism. Just my opinions. And I like that you're bringing new ideas to the table. Would be interested to see the list you are running, as I imagine it's very different from what we normally see here. Keep milling, my friend.
- To post a comment, please login or register a new account.