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The Magic Market Index for Oct 13, 2017
 
The World of Kamigawa
 
Treasure Cruisin' - Manaless Dredge
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, some interesting new ideas there!

    We actually have an alternative way to tap the Arbiter of the Ideals: We can regenerate them via Herbal Poultice, and then destroy them using Possessed Aven. So we could switch out Harmony of Nature if we wanted to. But yeah... Dryad's Caress is an instant.

    Militia's Pride can add another layer, nice. Now we just need to find another card savings!

    Giving creatures haste is an excellent way to both add a layer and to create at least one hasted Minion of Tevesh Szat token. Sadly, I couldn't find any safe way to give creatures haste other than Torrent of Souls. Harness by Force can still target one creature without paying its mana cost, so that doesn't work.

    I should look at other instants/sorceries that don't work without paying their mana costs, other than just the X spells.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh, nice! I think we can counter Minion of Tevesh Szat and mill Kiora's Dismissal and Broken Ambitions all with the same Broken Ambitions copy, so I don't think we need to spend any extra mana to activate Izzet Guildmage. This saves us 3 mana, of which we need to spend 2 to cycle Rebuild. So we still get 41 Kiora's Dismissal initially, except this time we don't need to copy Dual Nature with the original Copy Enchantment, so it works out a little better. Lower bound is still 2^^2^^43.

    Thinking about Herbal Poultice: If we go for the Consecrated Sphinx / Words of Wisdom ending, we need those drawn cards to do one of two things: either we draw something important, or the draw triggers something important. The most likely important thing that we could draw would be an instant/sorcery with an X cost; otherwise, I think it would need to be a permanent that we can't reuse. We have an artifact with a 0 cost at the bottom, so the permanent would need to be... a planeswalker? But, it would take too much work to make planeswalkers work at instant speed. If we use an instant/sorcery with an X cost, the problem is that usually those won't get a layer. Adding a card like Swarm Intelligence will probably make it one layer for two cards, which is not good enough. We'd like to get the two layers from Precursor Golem, but it looks like Worldfire messes up those double layers. I'm not seeing a scenario that could get around the Worldfire problem..

    The other possibility is using triggered abilities that trigger off of a draw. There are cards like Spiteful Visions and Underworld Dreams, but I'm not seeing how to turn damage into something profitable; triggered targeting of Minion of Tevesh Szat won't get layers, and targeting Herbal Poultice doesn't help. There's Night Dealings, but that won't work with Herbal Poultice, and it won't create a hasted token of Minion of Tevesh Szat. I suppose we could put Reality Spasm below it. But, we would have to deal with restoring the opponent's life, and usually that would cost a card. If we could have a creature that can deal damage to the opponent as part of the stage sequence, then we could use Tamanoa after Underworld Dreams to heal the opponent, and then go into Night Dealings. But, we would need to give Tamanoa to the opponent somehow, and that would cost cards. So, Night Dealings seems unlikely to work.


    EDIT: I notice that if we go with the Herbal Poultice / Arbiter of the Ideal / Curse of Bounty / World at War ending, then we can go back to using Psychic Battle. We get F_{w^3+w12+3}(F_{w^3+w12+2}(...) on the outside, but the inner functions are slightly smaller. But, we get rid of the insane luck required for Grip of Chaos. I'm not sure which one I prefer. What do you think?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Nice, that gets one more bounce than my first opening. I'll just mention the microscopic improvements from having the original Copy Enchantment copy other enchantments: If we have Copy Enchantment copy Dual Nature after the second to last bounce, we'll get 130 Dual Natures, so we'll be able to pay for 41 Kiora's Dismissals. Most of our enchantments will get destroyed on the next Kiora's Dismissal, but with 5 Psychic Battles we'll get 33 Dual Natures and 36 Psychic Battles at the end (Copying Dual Nature and Psychic Battle on the last two Copy Enchantments). Then the next Kiora's Dismissal will bump the numbers to 33*2^36 + 1 Dual Natures and 33*2^36 + 4 Psychic Battles. By comparison, starting with 128 Dual Natures and 5 Psychic Battles will take us to 2^12 + 1 Dual Natures and 2^12 + 7 Psychic Battles after Kiora's Dismissal, so that extra Kiora's Dismissal is worth it.

    I forgot about bouncing Omniscience! Taking that into consideration, my favored opening of drawing Evacuation and milling Kiora's Dismissal doesn't look so great anymore. But, I'll give it a looksee just in case.


    EDIT: I think I see how to save 12 Reality Spasms in your opening: Make a copy of Spellweaver Volute, enchanting Broken Ambitions, then bounce the original back to your hand. We can do this with the last copy of Kiora's Dismissal, so we should still get more than 2^^43 Dual Natures, and an extra Reality Spasm.


    EDIT: Welp, I'm pretty convinced that 13 Reality Spasms is impossible, but I suppose it is still possible that we could have a slightly better 12 Reality Spasm opening. I thought of the possibility of using the last remaining potential Spellweaver Volute trigger for something - but, clearly we need to cast Broken Ambitions first, so that we can mill some new instants. But then we need to resolve the Broken Ambitions spell to get to the other Volute trigger. That means that we don't have Broken Ambitions on the stack when we need to counter Minion of Tevesh Szat. If we try to respond with casting Minion of Tevesh Szat, then the Bloodbond March triggers will be resolved before we get to the other Volute trigger.


    EDIT: Trying to come up with an estimate, the main problem is how much recursion we get for the initial Precursor Golem triggers for the first Reality Spasm. We can't afford to cast either Worldfire or Rebuild, so I'm thinking that the w^3 becomes w + 3. Also, we lose the Minion of Tevesh Szat stage, since we can't access the Bloodbond March triggers, but the other stages should be fine. So, I'm thinking the Precursor Golem triggers are worth F_{w12}, except for the last one, which is worth the full F_{w^3 + w12}. So I have the whole final lower bound to be:

    (F_{w^3 + w12 + 3}) (F_{w^3 + w12 + 2}) (F_{w^3 + 12 + 1})^11 (F_{w^3 + w12}) (F_{w12 + 1}) (F_2)^40 (35).

    Simpler: (F_{w^3 + w12 + 3}) (F_{w^3 + w12 + 2})^2 (11)

    Simplest: F_{w^3 + w12 + 4} (2)


    EDIT: I just noticed that we can cycle Rebuild without it costing us a casting of Reality Spasm. So, we could flashback Flash of Defiance with a Spellweaver Volute on Rebuild, bounce our artifacts, then put Vedalken Orrery back onto the battlefield using Show and Tell. Then, we could replay Azorius Keyrune, and get more than 2^^43 copies. Unfortunately, we can neither tap those Keyrunes or use the mana they would generate without Kiora's Dismissal. And Kiora's Dismissal will be gone by the time we cast Rebuild, since we need to flashback Flash of Defiance, and the Flash of Defiance we need to flashback will be stuck below the Kiora's Dismissal copies on the stack. The only solution I can think of would be to counter Flash of Defiance - but, we can't cast Broken Ambitions because we need to cast Flash of Defiance to trigger it. So, I don't see a solution here.

    Can we put Kiora's Dismissal back into the graveyard? We could, but only after we cast Broken Ambitions. But that happens after we flashback Flash of Defiance, and we have no more ability to cast or flashback a sorcery, except for Show and Tell. So, we could do the following: Flashback Flash of defiance, put the Volute trigger above the Helix trigger, have the Volute trigger cast Broken Ambitions. Put the Spellweaver Volute on Rebuild, which we cycled. Copy or resolve Broken Ambitions to put Kiora's Dismissal in the graveyard. Play Copy Enchantment and create a copy of Spellweaver Volute, enchanting Kiora's Dismissal. Resolve the Helix, and cast Show and Tell, triggering both Rebuild and Kiora's Dismissal. Hmm... if we resolve Rebuild first, then we can't replay the Azorius Keyrune until Kiora's Dismissal is resolved, and if we resolve Kiora's Dismissal first, then we certainly can't bounce the March of the Machines after Azorius Keyrune is replayed. So I don't see how to make this work.


    EDIT: Actually, we can put Spellweaver Volutes on both Broken Ambitions and Rebuild. Then we flashback Flash of Defiance, triggering both Volutes and the Spellweaver Helix. Put the Helix on top; when we resolve it, it triggers both Volutes again. We resolve Broken Ambitions, and put Kiora's Dismissal in the graveyard. Then we resolve the Volute trigger on Rebuild, and the Volute gets placed on Kiora's Dismissal. We resolve Rebuild, bringing our artifacts back to our hand. Resolve Show and Tell, putting Vedalken Orrery on the battlefield. Replay Azorius Keyrune, getting more than 2^^43 copies. Then the Volute on Kiora's Dismissal resolves again, and casts Kiora's Dismissal, and we can bounce March of the Machines and start copying Kiora's Dismissal, getting more than 2^^2^^43 copies of Dual Nature. Does this work?

    No wait, Broken Ambitions is now off the stack, and we need to have it on. We don't have any other sorceries that we can cast. Can we put the original card back in the graveyard? I don't see why not. But, we won't be able to put both triggered Volutes on Broken Ambitions and Kiora's Dismissal, since the triggered Volute on Broken Ambitions resolves before we can put those two cards back in the graveyard. If we put two Volutes on Rebuild, I'm pretty sure we can only move one of them. So again, it's not working. So close, and yet so far.


    EDIT: Thought about improving the ending again. Herbal Poultice seems like it has some potential, as it is a single card that can target and is worth a layer, and recycling artifacts may be easier than recycling instants/sorceries. The first thing that came to mind was following it by Indomitable Creativity + Precursor Golem, but this has the same problem as the previous ending with Indomitable Creativity: We need to make progress with each spell copy, but then we need to cast Worldfire to make the maximum progress, and that will eliminate all the Golems, and the rest of the spell copies will fizzle. I guess this happens with Precursor Golem whenever the copied instant/sorcery has one or more layers beneath it.

    Another thought was going Glissa, the Traitor / Sylvan Offering, but Glissa, the Traitor isn't worth a layer.

    Treasury Thull looks like it goes to the combat phase too early.

    Arbiter of the Ideal is a possibility, but I don't know what to follow it with.


    EDIT: We could go:

    Herbal Poultice
    Arbiter of the Ideal
    Curse of Bounty
    World at War

    getting the same four layers as our current setup. Which version starts better?

    Obviously Reality Spasm is better, since it gets F_{w^3+w12+1} whereas Herbal Poultice gets F_{w^3+w12}
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yes, casting an early Reality Spasm seems like the ticket. The second and fourth openers in my last post should probably work then.

    Is it possible to get 13 Reality Spasms? Let's give it a try:

    1 Black Lotus
    2 Show and Tell
    3 Omniscience
    4 Opalescence
    5 Dual Nature
    6 Copy Enchantment

    get 6 Dual Natures

    7 Selvala's Enforcer

    draw 7 cards

    8 Broken Ambitions
    9 Spellweaver Volute
    10 Titania, Protector of Argoth
    11 Azorius Keyrune
    12 Vedalken Orrery
    13 Reality Spasm
    14 Mirror of Fate

    Cast Broken Ambitions, mill four cards:

    15 Kiora's Dismissal
    16 Evacuation
    17 Taiga
    18 Acorn Harvest

    Cast Vedalken Orrery.
    Cast Spellweaver Volute, enchanting Evacuation.
    Cast Azorius Keyrune.
    Cast Titania, Protector of Argoth. Taiga comes onto the battlefield.
    Tap Azorius Keyrune and Taiga for a blue and green mana.
    Flashback Acorn Harvest.
    Spellweaver Volute triggers. Place it on Kiora's Dismissal.
    Evacuation resolves, and brings almost all our enchantments back to our hand, as well as Selvala's Enforcer.
    Dual Nature destruction triggers go on the stack.
    Respond to the triggers by replaying Dual Nature, getting 5 token copies (going up to 10 total), and then Copy Enchantment copying Dual Nature, getting 11 token copies. (going up to 22 total)
    Play Selvala's Enforcer, getting 22 copies and drawing 23 cards.

    That seems pretty good, but there is a problem. We now have no flashback sorceries in the graveyard, so we need to use Mirror of Fate to bring Acorn Harvest back to the library, and Broken Ambitions to put it back into the graveyard. But, we can't use Mirror of Fate until we bounce March of the Machines, unless we are willing to sacrifice it, and we can't use Broken Ambitions until we trigger it from the graveyard via a sorcery. So we are stuck here unless we draw a sorcery.

    So, it looks like we can get a maximum of 12 Reality Spasms, unless I am missing something. Doing that shouldn't be hard; it's just a matter of finding the strongest approach, I think.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    It does look like we can mill Evacuation again, but I don't see a way to get the mana for another flashback spell. So, we would need to draw another sorcery, which would drop that opening to 11 Reality Spasms as well. I was just checking the latter three openings to see if they get 12 Reality Spasms; it seems that they can still get going and get 11 Reality Spasms, so they are all in the running for best opening. (Although the first two look better to me)

    I replaced Azorius Signet with Azorius Keyrune for precisely the reason you mention. Seems like the Keyrune should work just as well.

    Yeah, this is assuming the Kithkin Mourncaller / World at War ending. Getting a full layer more seems hard; perhaps if we added Winding Constrictor and two cards that used counters? But, that would be unlikely to work because of Worldfire. Besides that, the only ways to get double layers per card was either to use Archangel of Thune, which doesn't work because life total is already used, or double up on card usage, either with Boon Reflection for the life totals of both players, or with damage bouncers for both 1-2 damage and 3+ damage (for Pain Magnification). The latter seems undoable with just five cards. Oh, and there's Precursor Golem; this seems like the most promising. To get an extra layer, we probably need to use it on more than one instant/sorcery.

    Otherwise, the ideal ending would be four layers ending in Consecrated Sphinx / Words of Wisdom. This seems doable, but I haven't found anything yet. It's too bad that Indomitable Creativity ending didn't work out, although we can't use red mana at the end anymore. We do have colorless mana available now, so we could throw in something like Kozilek's Pathfinder. But, how to generate colorless mana? As far as I know, there isn't a colorless version of Black Lotus.

    So, is there a way to stick something in between Reality Spasm and Consecrated Sphinx? We could make it a two or three card transition if need be. But we need to draw something that gets an extra usage out of Reality Spasm... I don't know how it could be safe unless it was an X instant/sorcery or a 0 costing artifact/enchantment that you had to sacrifice. I don't see any good candidates from those categories; Diabolic Revelation isn't worth a layer by itself. Should Reality Spasm be replaced? It does seem to be very good, allowing us to get that initial hasted token and still getting a layer, with Precursor Golem bumping it to two. Can we move Consecrated Sphinx and/or Words of Wisdom further down? We would then need some way to refill the opponent's library, and it looks like we would lose a layer.

    How about squeezing in something in between Minion of Tevesh Szat and Reality Spasm? This seems like it has some potential, but I'm not sure what could work. I thought about Minion of Leshrac, but it can be targeted by Godtoucher, and anyway doesn't seem to get a layer.

    So yeah, I'm can't see anything better to do with the extra card currently.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I see, good. We do need some transition stuff to restart the hyperstage, but I guess we can just replay Mirror of Fate, Spellweaver Helix, and Azorius Signet to gain what we need, so Terashi's Grasp does indeed go infinite.

    So, time to think about the start again! Using Words of Wisdom would be ideal, if we can get it started. If we can't, then probably Selvala's Enforcer?


    EDIT: So, without being able to get many draws from Consecrated Sphinx, I guess our goal in the opening is to mill as many of our cards that we can use from our graveyard as we can, while redrawing as few cards as we can. We have 15 instants/sorceries/lands, so that gives us a potential of 15 drawings of Reality Spasm. But, we definitely have to Show and Tell, and probably a few others, like Evacuation and Kiora's Dismissal. I'm uncertain whether or not we need to cast Worldfire prior to the ending Reality Spasms... hopefully not. If we can get away with just casting Show and Tell, Kiora's Dismissal, and Evacuation, and go from there to the Reality Spasms, then we can draw Reality Spasm 12 times. We need to wind up milling 11 instants/sorceries/lands and no others - hopefully we can manage this with appropriate usage of Mirror of Fate and Spellweaver Helix. The biggest question is getting the mana to get started.


    EDIT: So, here is an okay start:

    1 Black Lotus
    2 Show and Tell
    3 Omniscience
    4 Opalescence
    5 Dual Nature
    6 Copy Enchantment

    get 6 Dual Natures

    7 Selvala's Enforcer

    draw 7 cards

    8 Grip of Chaos
    9 Cowardice
    10 Vedalken Orrery
    11 Evacuation
    12 Kiora's Dismissal
    13 Azorius Keyrune
    14 March of the Machines

    Cast Grip of Chaos, Cowardice, March of the Machines, and Vedalken Orrery.
    Cast Kiora's Dismissal, getting 7 Grip of Chaos triggers and 8 bounces.
    Get 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 Dual Natures after the first five bounces.
    After the sixth bounce, get 13 more Dual Natures, 18 more Grip of Chaoses, and an Opalescence.
    Play the Azorius Keyrune, get 45 Dual Nature tokens.
    Bounce March of the Machines and Opalescence with the last two Grip of Chaos triggers.
    Play Evacuation, bounce Selvala's Enforcer back to our hand.
    Play Selvala's Enforcer, get 45 Dual Nature triggers and eventually draw 46 more cards.

    I think this isn't too bad. We do need to draw Broken Ambitions later, so we wind up drawing for instants/sorceries, reducing the number of Reality Spasm draws to 11. I don't think there are any problems from here on out.


    Perhaps we can do better, by using Broken Ambitions to mill at least one of Kiora's Dismissal or Evacuation. So, we could try:


    8 Broken Ambitions
    9 Spellweaver Volute
    10 Evacuation
    11 Titania, Protector of Argoth
    12 Vedalken Orrery
    13 Grip of Chaos
    14 Cowardice

    Cast Broken Ambitions, mill:

    15 Kiora's Dismissal
    16 Rebuild
    17 Flash of Defiance
    18 Taiga

    Play Titania, Protector of Argoth.
    Bring Taiga onto the battlefield.
    Play Vedalken Orrery.
    Cast Evacuation, bringing Selvala's Enforcer and all our enchantments back to our hand.
    Play out our enchantments, getting 6 Dual Natures and 7 Grip of Chaoses.

    Draw seven cards:

    19 Azorius Signet
    20 March of the machines
    21 Izzet Guildmage
    22-25 ?

    The problem: We only have one Spellweaver Volute, so if we try to flashback Flash of Defiance, we can only get trigger one of Evacuation or Kiora's Dismissal. Obviously we need another Evacuation, but without Kiora's Dismissal we only get 7 more Selvala's Enforcers, not enough, and then Evacuation is exiled. We can only afford to flashback one sorcery. So, we need to draw another sorcery, and we can only draw 11 Reality Spasms again.


    Trying again, this time drawing Kiora's Dismissal:

    8 Broken Ambitions
    9 Spellweaver Volute
    10 Kiora's Dismissal
    11 Titania, Protector of Argoth
    12 Azorius Keyrune
    13 Grip of Chaos
    14 Cowardice

    Cast Broken Ambitions, mill:

    15 Evacuation
    16 Rebuild
    17 Flash of Defiance
    18 Taiga

    With one more card, we could draw all of Vedalken Orrery, Grip of Chaos and Cowardice, and we should be golden. As it is, we need to decide which card to drop. Let's try without Vedalken.

    We cast Kiora's Dismissal. We can bounce up to seven things, but we can't cast any non-instants in between. If we bounce Copy Enchantment, then Dual Nature destruction tokens will trigger, and we will lose all our Dual Nature tokens. I don't think we can possibly get enough Dual Nature tokens to allow Selvala's Enforcer to get us to the Reality Spasms. So this doesn't work out so well, and we will need at least one more sorcery.


    What if we keep Vedalken Orrery, but give up our Grip of Chaos. Then, Kiora's Dismissal can only bounce one thing. It might as well be Copy Enchantment, but we get Dual Nature destruction triggers again. We can try to respond to the Dual Nature triggers. We can then replay Copy Enchantment and get five token copies, for which we can have one copy Spellweaver Volute and the other four copy Dual Nature. We now have nine Dual Natures. We next flashback Flash of Defiance, and trigger the Spellweaver Volutes on both Kiora's Dismissal and Evacuation. If we don't bounce Opalescence, we will lose all our progress, so that seems like the natural thing to bounce. So, we wind up casting Evacuation and then replaying Selvala's Enforcer for 10 card draws. Not enough, so this doesn't work either.

    So, I'm not seeing a way yet to get 12 Reality Spasms. Am I missing something?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I think that is a very good point. In particular, if we don't cast Terashi's Grasp in the higher hyperstage, then we can't cast Acorn Harvest, so we can't cast Evacuation, so we can't bring Wormfang Behemoth back to our hand if we try to use it to exile our hand.


    EDIT: Well, we could try to handle the preparation for Worldfire in the lower hyperstage. But, I don't believe that works out. We would have to cast Wormfang Behemoth, then flashback Acorn Harvest as a response. But, we spend our 3 life this way, and as we have seen we can't get an extra 3 uses out of the Fountain of Youths when we do this. So we can't actually build another stage and use it for the higher hyperstage. We can build a higher stage (even 2) and just resolve them like we were in the first hyperstage, but that doesn't go infinite.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh huh, I didn't know that.

    Yeah, it doesn't look like we have room for Mirror of Fate. Then we would have room for one Terashi's Grasp, one Flash of Defiance, and no Kiora's Dismissal, and we won't mill enough cards for Kiora's Dismissal.


    EDIT: It's too bad Pull from Eternity brings the exiled card to the graveyard rather than the library, or else we could mill it instead of having to draw Mirror of Fate.


    EDIT: I thought of a way to save Show and Tell: If we replace Titania, Protector of Argoth with say Expedition Map, then we are forced to use Show and Tell in order to put the land back onto the battlefield, so we can't use it for Fountain of Youth instead. But, that would squeeze out Terashi's Grasp. I don't know how to fix it except to add another Flash of Defiance. That would make the decks even, so the winner would be which one gave the better start. The Replenish deck looks to get the better start.


    EDIT: What if we replace Terashi's Grasp with say Lifegift? Could that make Show and Tell work?


    EDIT: Wait a minute. How does the infinite for Show and Tell work? We can resolve spells in the order Worldfire / Show and Tell / Retract to get one more use of a Fountain of Youth, so we wind up with one extra life. But, our flashback spells use 3 life, so we need to get to gain three extra life to do anything profitable. I don't see how to get that three extra life - if we flashback Flash of Defiance to cast the same three spells again, we are back to 2 life.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Great, getting better and better! Minor correction: 2^2^2^2^90 < 2^^8, so the final lower bound is 2^^^^2^^^^2^^^^(2^^2^^8).

    Yeah, I too am really close to keeping access to Broken Ambitions. Drawing Mirror of Fate seems unnecessary, since if we can have Broken Ambitions around to mill cards, we can have it around to counter our spells.


    EDIT: I think I have it:


    We draw:
    Volcanic Island, Izzet Guildmage, Veldaken Orrery, Precursor Golem, Spellweaver Volute, Spellweaver Helix, Terashi's Grasp, Reality Spasm, Flash of Defiance, Flash of Defiance.

    Play Volcanic Island and tap it for blue. (1 green, 1 blue, 10 colorless, 4 life)
    Play Guildmage.
    Play Vedalken Orrery.
    Play Precursor Golem.
    Play Spellweaver Volute, enchanting Broken Ambitions.
    Play Flash of Defiance, triggering Volute.
    Resolve the Volute to cast Broken Ambitions.
    Volute gets placed on Words of Wisdom.
    Use Guildmage to create a copy of Broken Ambitions. (1 green, 8 colorless, 4 life)
    Resolve the copy, and counter Flash of Defiace.

    Mill four cards: March of the Machines, Cowardice, Kiora's Dismissal, Grip of Chaos.

    Play Spellweaver Helix, imprinting a Flash of Defiance and Replenish.
    Play Flash of Defiance, triggering Helix and Volute.
    Do nothing with the Volute trigger.
    Resolve the Helix trigger and bring March of the Machines, Grip of Chaos, and Cowardice to the battlefield.

    Cast Terashi's Grasp, triggering four Precursor Golems.
    We resolve the first Precursor trigger and get 11 copies of Terashi's targeting our Golems. Cowardice triggers and we will end up bouncing them all. We also trigger a total of 44 Grip of Chaos.
    We use all of them to bounce Copy Enchantment. Use 43 of them to double the dual Nature count to 3*2^43 and get Grip of Chaoses on the last bounce.
    Replay the Precursor Golem and get tokens. Then resolve the second Precursor trigger. Get over 2^90 Grip of Chaos triggers. Use those to double Dual Natures and top of on Grip of Chaos. New count: ~2^2^90
    Repeat for third and fourth trigger, going to 2^2^2^2^90 > 2^^7.
    Towards the end, let a Copy Enchantment enter as a copy of Spellweaver Volute, enchanting Kiora's Dismissal.
    Use the fourth to last Grip of Chaos to bounce Precursor Golem.
    Use the third to last Grip of Chaos to bounce Spellweaver Helix.
    Use the second to last Grip of Chaos to bounce Azorius Signet.
    Play Azorius Signet and get more than 2^^7 copies.
    Use the last grip of Chaos trigger to bounce March of the Machines.
    Tap the Azorius Signets for more than 2^^7 blue mana.

    Cast March of the Machines.
    Copy Broken Ambitions to counter March of the Machines.
    Do not let March of the Machines, be countered.

    Mill four cards: Acorn's harvest, Flash of Defiance, ?, ?

    Flashback Acorn's Harvest.
    Trigger Spellweaver Volute, casting Kiora's Dismissal.
    Resolve the Grip of Chaos triggers to get more than 2^^8 Dual Natures.
    Spend nearly all of our blue mana to copy Kiora's Dismissal, getting more than 2^^2^^7 Dual Natures.

    Cast Reality Spasm, with X=1. Get more than 2^^2^^7 Precursor Golem triggers.
    Do a lot of bouncing for more Dual Natures and mana, but in the end change the all the targets to Volcanic Island.
    Untap and tap Volcanic Island more than 2^^^^(2^^2^^7) times, for red mana.
    Also remember to bounce Consecrated Sphinx.

    Play Spellweaver Helix, imprinting a Flash of Defiance and Terashi's Grasp.
    Repeatedly do the following:
    Flashback Flash of Defiance. Helix and Volutes trigger.
    Resolve the Helix to cast Terashi's Grasp.
    Activate Broken Ambitions to counter Flash of Defiance.
    Resolve Terashi's Grasp, taking X Dual Natures to more than 2^^^^X Dual Natures.
    Use a couple copies to gain life and mana as needed.

    In the end, we wind up with more than 2^^^^^(2^^^^(2^^(2^^7))) Dual Natures.
    On the last Flash of Defiance, put Words of Wisdom on the stack below Terashi's Grasp.
    Replay Consecrated Sphinx, getting more than 2^^^^^(2^^^^(2^^(2^^7))) copies.
    Resolve Words of Wisdom.



    We reach 2^^^^^(2^^^^(2^^(2^^7))) Consecrated Sphinxes.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, yes. We could try flashbacking Acorn Harvest prior to casting Flash of Defiance, but then the Flash of Defiance would be responsible for putting Kiora's Dismissal on the stack, and it would still get stuck. Basically, if we don't have Kiora's Dismissal in our hand, then we need to trigger Words of Wisdom to put Spellweaver Volute on Kiora's Dismissal, and so two of our sorceries will end up getting stuck on the stack. Only one of those sorceries can be Acorn Harvest; the other would need to be something we need.


    EDIT: I think it is possible to get to 2^^^^2^^^^2^^^^104 if we go with your starting ten but replace Reality Spasm with another Flash of Defiance. Then we can use the Volcanic Island to tap for red at the start, and just mill four cards. The one problem: We can't bounce Consecrated Sphinx to get more copies! Frown And since we only mill four cards, there's no room to get Evacuation, say.

    We could also replace Volcanic Island with Flash of Defiance instead. This winds up working out much like your sequence, and also gets 2^^^^2^^^^2^^^^6.

    If we had just one more card, we could mill four and save Broken Ambitions. Then we could repeatedly cast Flash of Defiance and counter it, and we can get lots of red mana from Reality Spasm and lots of life from Terashi's Grasp. But, there's no card we can cut, as far as I can see.


    EDIT: We could forget all the sorceries if we could insert another creature in the sequence, so that Reality Spasm could untap a hasted token of the creature, and the creature could bounce Azorius Signet. By my count, that should be five Knuth arrows. But, the best I could do was eleven cards again:

    Kiora's Dismissal
    Izzet Guildmage
    Vedalken Orrery
    Precursor Golem
    Reality Spasm
    Metallurgeon
    Mimic Vat
    March of the Machines
    Grip of Chaos
    Cowardice
    Terashi's Grasp


    EDIT: This may be premature, since there still may be changes to the deck, but I've started writing the article again. I just put up the section on the Metallurgeon here.

    Of course, the Getting Started section is now all wrong - I'll probably write that up at the end.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Good job!

    I just noticed: Do the spells triggered by Precursor Golem actually trigger Psychic Battle? There seems to be some debate on this question, but I believe the answer is no. So, we need to switch to Grip of Chaos. A pity - I was hoping we could achieve our best deck without relying on truly ridiculous luck.

    Now, Grip of Chaos does trigger Psychic Battle, so if we find a way to save a card, we can add a layer while still keeping Words of Wisdom at the end. (while being able to avoid ridiculous luck)

    EDIT: Whoops, we don't get a final layer that way - we need to untap with Reality Spasm.


    EDIT: I think I found an improvement for the start:



    We have the same starting hand and mill, eventually drawing 10 cards:

    Acorn Harvest
    Izzet Guildmage
    Spellweaver Volute
    Flash of Defiance
    Spellweaver Helix
    Volcanic Island
    Vedalken Orrery
    Precursor Golem
    Terashi's Grasp
    Reality Spasm

    Play Volcanic Island and tap it. (1 blue, 1 green, 10 colorless, 4 life)
    Play Guildmage.
    Play Vedalken Orrery.
    Play Spellweaver Volute on Broken Ambitions.
    Play Acorn Harvest, triggering Spellweaver Volute.
    Spellweaver Volute gets placed on Words of Wisdom.
    Use Izzet Guildmage to copy Broken Ambitions. (1 green, 8 colorless, 4 life)
    Two Broken Ambitions mill eight cards.

    March of the Machines
    Grip of Chaos
    Cowardice
    Flash of Defiance
    Flash of Defiance
    Kiora's Dismissal
    Rebuild
    Evacuation

    Play Spellweaver Helix, exiling Replenish and a Flash of Defiance.
    Play Flash of Defiance, triggering Volute and Helix.
    The Helix trigger resolves, and Replenish brings our enchantments to the battlefield.
    The Volute trigger resolves, and Words of Wisdom gets placed on the stack. Do not resolve it yet!
    Spellweaver Volute gets placed on Kiora's Dismissal.
    Flashback Acorn's Harvest, triggering Spellweaver Volute. (7 colorless, 1 life)
    Kiora's Dismissal is cast, triggering Grip of Chaos four times and Cowardice five times.
    Spellweaver Volute is placed on Rebuild.
    Bounce Copy Enchantment five times, getting 6, 12, 24, 50, and 100 Dual Natures. (Copying Dual Nature the last two times)
    Play Precursor Golem, getting 100 token copies and 202 vanilla Golem tokens.
    Resolve the destruction trigger for Dual Nature, destroying 98 token copies of Dual Nature. This triggers a bunch of "destroy all tokens created by this Dual Nature" triggers; leave those on the stack.
    Cast Terashi's Grasp, getting 101 Precursor Golem triggers and a Spellweaver Volute trigger.
    Do nothing with the Volute trigger.
    Resolve the first Precursor Golem trigger. We get 302 copies of Terashi's Grasp. Cowardice triggers and bounces all but one Precursor Golem, including the original Precursor Golem.
    We get 4 Grip of Choas triggers per copy, for 1208 Grip of Chaos triggers.
    The first trigger we use to bounce Azorius Signet. Replay and get 100 token copies.
    Use the second trigger to bounce March of the Machines.
    Tap the 101 Azorios Signets to get 101 blue mana, so that we have 108 mana in total.
    Use that mana to copy Kiora's Dismissal 34 times. The first Kiora's Dismissal generates five bounces.
    The first bounce returns Copy Enchantment; all our Dual Nature tokens are already destroyed.
    We replay and bounce four more times, getting 2, 4, 8, and 16 copies of Dual Nature.
    We replay Copy Enchantment one more time, copying Grip of Chaos to get 19 copies in total.
    We resolve the second Kiora's Dismissal, getting 20 bounces. We wind up with 16 * 2^19 Dual Natures and 16 * 2^19 + 2 Grip of Chaoses; this is more than 2^^4 for both.
    The remaining 32 Kiora's Dismissal increases the numbers to 2^^36; leave one Kiora's Dismissal bounce on the stack.
    Replay March of the Machines.
    Resolve the next Terashi's Grasp Grip of Chaos trigger to bounce Azorius Signet.
    Replay Azorius Signet and get more than 2^^36 copies.
    Copy another Kiora's Dismissal, generating more than 2^^37 Dual Natures and Grip of Chaoses, and bringing March of the Machines back to our hand.
    Tap the Azorius Signets, generating more than 2^^36 mana. Copy Kiora's Dismissal more than 2^^36 times, generating more than 2^^2^^36 Dual Natures and Grip of Chaoses, or more than 2^^^4.
    Repeat the process for the remaining 1205 Grip of Chaos triggers, increasing our numbers to more than 2^^^1209, or more than 2^^^^4.
    Replay Precursor Golem, getting more than 2^^^^4 copies and vanilla Golems.
    Repeat the process for the remaining 100 triggers of Precursor Golem, getting more than 2^^^^104 Dual Natures and Grip of Chaoses in the end.
    Make sure to gain some life at the end.
    Resolve the "destroy all tokens created by this Dual Nature" triggers, destroying nothing useful. (We already lost the Psychic Battles from those Dual Natures.)
    Play Reality Spasm with X=1, getting 2^^^^104 Golem triggers.
    Do the same procedure as for the Terashi's Grasp, resulting in more than 2^^^^2^^^^104 Dual Natures.
    Remember to bounce the original Consecrated Sphinx and the original Spellweaver Helix towards the end of the procedure, and use a Reality Spasm copy to untap Volcanic Island.
    Tap the Volcanic Island for a red mana.
    Play Helix, exiling Terashi's Grasp and Flash of Defiance.
    Flashback Flash of Defiance, triggering Helix and Volute.
    Do nothing with the Volute trigger.
    The Spellweaver Helix casts Terashi's Grasp.
    We repeat the previous precedure yet another time, taking the number to 2^^^^2^^^^2^^^^104.
    Cast Consecrated Sphinx, getting more than 2^^^^2^^^^2^^^^104 copies.
    Resolve the Words of Wisdom.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Now that I know how to mill eight cards, I looked at the possibility of a stage again. It looks like we need the following cards in the 10 card draw:

    Metallurgeon
    Mimic Vat
    Horobi, Death's Wail
    Izzet Guildmage
    Mirror of Fate
    Terashi's Grasp
    Titania, Protector of Argoth
    Spellweaver Volute
    Spellweaver Helix
    Vedalken Orrery

    But, we don't have Rebuild, meaning we can only mill 4 cards, not enough. So I guess we are a bit short of a stage.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Excellent.

    I was wondering about whether we can deal with having to use Psychic Battle while using Broken Ambitions to counter spells and mill cards. In my initial analysis, it seems okay. The most frequent use of Broken Ambitions will be to counter and mill Metallurgeon; if we don't put a card other than Metallurgeon at least that fast, then we will eventually run out of cards in the library. The only thing that can exile that fast is Spellweaver Helix I think, but Spellweaver Helix and Mirror of Fate should have no problems putting sorceries from the graveyard into the library, so I don't see any problem.


    EDIT: Minute improvement: For the last Copy Enchantment bounce for the first Kiora's Dismissal, have it copy Dual Nature rather than copy nothing. That gets you 50 Dual Natures, hence 54 mana and 18 bouncings. Bouncing Copy Enchantment then destroys the Dual Nature tokens, so after five bouncings we wind up with 17 Dual Natures and 20 Psychic Battles. (Doing the trick of copying Dual Nature on the second to last playing, and copying Psychic Battle on the final playing) This is more than 2^^3, so after 18 Kiora's Dismissal we will have more than 2^^20 Dual Natures, and the final number will be more than 2^^^^(2^^^^(2^^20)).
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Very clever start! Yes, I used Terashi's Grasp instead of Harmony of Nature, which should work because we have Precursor Golem available. But, your start wound up better. Do you think you could use Terashi's Grasp to improve your start even more? Getting multiple quadruple arrows would be awesome.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ooh yes, I think so! Rebuild seems fine - as you say, cycling it can just trade one card for another, which we could have drawn in the first place.

    So we can switch

    Core Prowler
    Saltcrusted Steppe
    Drake Familiar
    Allay
    Cephalid Shrine
    Perpetual Timepiece

    with

    Azorius Keyrune
    Copper Myr
    Izzet Guildmage
    Kiora's Dismissal
    Broken Ambitions

    with some more changes for the start. We can't have Sands of Delirium any more, nor can we use Overeager Apprentice since we need black for later. So I guess we go back to the hard cast of Omniscience.


    EDIT: Looks like we can do:

    Black Lotus
    Channel
    Azorius Signet
    Broken Ambitions
    Replenish
    Consecrated Sphinx
    Words of Wisdom

    and milling

    Omniscience
    Opalescence
    Dual Nature
    Copy Enchantment

    so we get the 10 card draw again.

    EDIT: I wonder if we can get a stage going with those 10 cards. It looks like we will need:

    Metallurgeon
    Mimic Vat
    Psychic Battle
    Cowardice
    Horobi, Death's Wail
    Spellweaver Volute
    a sorcery
    Retract
    March of the Machines
    Kiora's Dismissal
    Izzet Guildmage

    We could get the four enchantments on the battlefield via Replenish, but that requires that we cast a Broken Ambitions first. We don't want to just cast Broken Ambitions from the graveyard via Spellweaver Volute and resolve it, since then Broken Ambitions will be in exile and we won't be able to get it back to the graveyard. So, we need to put a Spellweaver Volute on Broken Ambitions, cast a sorcery of some kind to trigger it, put Izzet Guildmage on the battlefield, and then generate a blue mana somehow. So, we can play Retract to bring Azorius Signet back to our hand. We would like to play March of the Machines, so we play it and then play Kiora's Dismissal to bounce it back to our hand. That will get us four copies of Azorius Signet, which should be good to start with. Then, we play Spellweaver Helix and imprint Replenish and Flash of Defiance, then play a second Flash of Defiance to trigger it. Meh, that's eight cards already, we won't have room for Metallurgeon/Mimic Vat/Mirror of Fate. So maybe a stage is too ambitious.


    EDIT: So, if no stage is possible, we just want to get as many Kiora's Dismissals as we can:

    We will draw:

    Kiora's Dismissal
    Spellweaver Volute
    Rebuild
    March of the Machines
    Psychic Battle
    Cowardice
    Izzet Guildmage
    Acorn Harvest
    Marshaling the Troops
    Vedalken Orrery

    Play March of the Machines and Vedalken Orrery. Respond to the Dual Nature triggers for Vedalken Orrery by playing Rebuild. Vedalken Orrery and Azorius Signet get bounced back to our hand. Resolve the Dual Nature triggers to get three Vedalken Orrery tokens. Play Psychic Battle, Cowardice, and Izzet Guildmage, getting three token copies of each. Play Kiora's Dismissal; we get five bounces. The first four increase the number of Dual Natures to 48. We respond to the fifth bounce by playing Azorius Signet, getting 48 copies. We use the fifth bounce to bounce March of the Machines, and the token copies get exiled. Play Spellweaver Volute on Kiora's Dismissal. Play Acorn Harvest. This triggers Spellweaver Volute, and Kiora's Dismissal goes on the stack. (This seems like waste of a sorcery, but I couldn't find something better.) The Spellweaver Volute gets placed on Broken Ambitions. We currently have 14 life and 49 Azorius Signets; we spend 2 life and 1 Azorius Signet to copy Kiora's Dismissal, getting five bounces again. We increase the number of Dual Natures to 48*2^4 = 768, and increase the number of Psychic Battles to 771, using the last Copy Enchantment token to copy Spellweaver Volute. Put the Spellweaver Volute token on Rebuild. Play Vedalken Orrery, but don't let the Dual Nature triggers resolve. Cast Marshaling the Troops, triggering Broken Ambitions and Rebuild. The Broken Ambitions counters the Acorn Harvest spell, and mills four cards into our graveyard, including Evacuation. Copy Kiora's Dismissal four more times, spending 8 life and 4 Azorius Signets. We start with 771 > 2^^3 Psychic Battles, so we wind up with more than 2^^7 Psychic Battles and Dual Natures. Rebuild resolves and brings our artifacts back to our hand. (But not before we tap all of our Signets for mana!) Marshaling the Troops resolves and gives us more than 2^^7 life. Use our life and our remaining 44 blue mana to copy 44 more Kiora's Dismissals; we wind up with more than 2^^51 Dual Natures and Psychic Battles. After the second to last bounce, we play Azorius Signet with March of the Machines on the battlefield, getting more then 2^^51 token copies. Copy Kiora's Dismissal more than 2^^51 times, getting more than 2^^2^^51 Dual Natures and Psychic Battles. On the final replaying of Copy Enchantment, make sure to have Spellweaver Volutes on Evacuation and Words of Wisdom. (The original can be on Words of Wisdom.) Also, make sure to bounce Opalescence and March of the Machines. Finally, we use our floating one green mana and 3 life to flashback Acorn Harvest, which triggers Evacuation and Words of Wisdom. Evacuation brings Consecrated Sphinx back to our hand, and we replay it for more than 2^^2^^51 copies. Then Words of Wisdom resolves, allowing us to more than 2^^2^^51 Consecrated Sphinx triggers, drawing two cards at a time.

    That seems pretty good, although I had hoped to get more uses of Rebuild. But, that would require making use of Mirror of Fate and more Broken Ambitions, which seems difficult.


    EDIT: It would be nice to use Replenish to get more enchantments onto the battlefield. But, I don't see how to do it without using at least a couple of enchantments first, which makes it less worth it.


    EDIT: Or maybe, work in Reality Spasm and Precursor Golem. Each bouncing of Azorius Signet can implement a double arrow operation, so Reality Spasm should implement quadruple arrows. So a big improvement should be possible.


    EDIT: Okay, I think I got it.

    We draw:

    Kiora's Dismissal
    Spellweaver Volute
    March of the Machines
    Psychic Battle
    Cowardice
    Izzet Guildmage
    Acorn Harvest
    Vedalken Orrery
    Precursor Golem
    Terashi's Grasp

    Play March of the Machines, Psychic Battle Cowardice[/c], Izzet Guildmage, and Vedalken Orrery, getting three copies of each. Play Kiora's Dismissal, getting five bouncings. The first three bounces pump the Dual Natures to 6, 12, and 24; for the fourth, we copy Dual Nature with the original Copy Enchantment, pumping the total number to 50. After the fifth bounce, we respond to the Dual Nature destruction triggers to play Copy Enchantment again, bumping the number of Dual Natures to 98.

    Play Spellweaver Volute on Kiora's Dismissal. Play Acorn Harvest, triggering Spellweaver Volute to cast Kiora's Dismissal again. Leave the spell on the stack. Put the Spellweaver Volute on Broken Ambitions.

    Play Precursor Golem, getting 98 Precursor Golem token copies, and 198 regular Golem tokens. Play Terashi's Grasp, triggering Broken Ambitions and all the Precursor Golems. Resolve the Broken Ambitions, countering the Acorn Harvest, and milling four cards, including Evacuation. Resolve the first Precursor Golem trigger; we get 296 copies of Terashi's Grasp, each one getting five bounces, for 1480 total. We alternate between bouncing Azorius Signet, playing Azorius Signet, and bouncing March of the Machines, then tapping the Azorius Signets for mana. We then spend the mana to copy Kiora's Dismissal many times. The first time, we get 99 Azorius Signets, which we combine with 12 life to get 37 Kiora's Dismissals, which increases our number of Dual Natures to more than 2^^39, which is more than 2^^^3. Each bouncing of Azorius Signet increases the last number by one, so we wind up with more than 2^^^741 after 739 bouncings, or more than 2^^^^3. We then bounce Copy Enchantment, and the Precursor Golem, to refresh our number of Golems. Each Precursor Golem trigger increases the final number, so we get more than 2^^^^101 Dual Natures. We make sure to have Spellweaver Volutes on Evacuate and Words of Wisdom, and to use at least one Terashi's Grasp to actually gain life, so that we have at least 4. Also, bounce Opalescence and March of the Machines.

    We finally flashback Acorn Harvest, which triggers Evacuation and Words of Wisdom. Evacuation brings Consecrated Sphinx back to our hand, which we replay to get more than 2^^^^101 copies. Finally we resolve Words of Wisdom, and draw more than 2^^^^101 cards, two at a time.

    Posted in: Magic General
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